Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to the Latino Newsletter Podcast. I am your host, Michelle Zacarias, and on today's episode, we have Anthony Modesto Milian. 0:09 He is an Afro-Latino public historian who focuses on capturing and preserving the stories of marginalized communities. 0:16 Anthony is a social media content creator and an independent fine art and photojournalist photographer based in the upstate of South Carolina. Thank you so much for being here, Anthony. You're very welcome. 0:27 Thank you for having me. So let us get started. For those of you who might not be as familiar with Anthony's work, he is a public historian. Anthony, tell us how do you define public historian? 0:41 Yeah, so it's really interesting. So the, the whole story of becoming a public historian, I was speaking to a friend of mine who is, like, a PhD-level historian, and he was like... 0:53 He was asking me, like, "Where did you get your degrees from?" And I was kinda like, basically like, "Okay, so my degree's in accounting. My degree's not in history." Right? 1:00 And so he was like, "Well, you're doing everything that a historian does. You are a public historian." 1:05 And that was the first time I ever got acquainted with the terminology of public historian, and I've had other historians say the same thing to me. 1:14 A public historian is someone essentially who takes historical facts, historical knowledge, and historical context, and they deliver them outside of academia. 1:22 So you're thinking of somebody like your, your libraries, your museums. These are all places that foster public history and public historians. 1:30 But then now in social media, because we navigate life through, through our phones, uh, your public historians are also the people that are delivering historical context and information through Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. 1:44 So that's essentially what a public historian is. So you mentioned that you actually had this background in finance. What was the moment, you would say, that was kind of pivotal in steering you towards this trajectory? 1:59 I was working for a tech company, and I started making content, and essentially I was talking about photography stuff, and then the pandemic happened and I was like, "You know, I can't really do photography 'cause we're on lockdown." 2:15 I had lost two weddings because, uh, of the lockdowns. I didn't feel comfortable doing them. And I was like, you know, what else could I use my platform for? 2:24 I had, like, 7,000 followers or something like that, and this is back in 2020, and I made a video about La Operacion, the, the experimentation of Puerto Rican women, and I went to sleep, and the next day the video blew up. 2:39 It had like 30,000 likes and, like, 100,000 views, and I was like, okay, so this is what people like to see. So to answer your question, it was the pandemic. The pandemic steered me in that direction. 2:52 Yeah, I feel like the pandemic was kind of like this... It's like a time capsule, right? 2:56 Like, it's this moment that really cannot be replicated, but so many people in a really dark period found opportunity, and I think for a lot of content creators, like, they really found their niche, right? 3:07 Like, their audience, the type of content that they really love to create. And so I see that trend or that pattern in your work, right? 3:15 You do focus a lot on, like, history, specifically Afro-Latino history, which we love to see. Can we talk a little bit about that? Because you identify as Afro-Latino. Yes. 3:28 Why are we still struggling with Afro-Latino representation in the broader context of Latinidad? I think we struggle with Afro-Latino representation within Afro-Latinidad in America. 3:43 America is a very black-and-white country. America doesn't do nuance. We see race from a, a social construct perspective and no other perspective outside of that. So when somebody says they're Afro-Latino, 4:00 it throws off a lot of people. So they'll say something like... I'll say, "Oh, I'm Afro-Latino," and they'll say, "Oh, so you're not Black," and I say, "Yes, I am Black." "Well, what is Afro-Latino?" 4:10 "Well, it's somebody of African descent that is, uh, either has ancestry or originates from a Latin American country." And it's like you see the wheel spinning. You know, people don't understand that. 4:24 And another thing is racism plays a big part in the Latin American construct, right? You know, miscegenation, and then also the, the concepts like, uh, blancameinto and mejorando la raza. 4:37 These are all things that play a part in whether or not somebody will see themself in pop culture, and a lot of it comes down to the color of your skin. 4:46 So these are all things that play a part in Afro-Latino representation. One is ignorance, and two is just straight-up racism. 4:54 So I feel like as an Afro-Latino, my opportunity that I have is to educate, and I try to do the full spectrum of the diaspora. 5:03 You know, I honestly, like, as a, as a Black man, I see the interconnectedness in all of Blackness, regardless of where they are, simply because for a lot of us, it was as much as a stop on a slave ship that separated us by language. 5:21 So we, we... Again, you know, when you do your DNA test, I had, like, six cousins in, like, Ecuador, and I was like, "Where'd that come from?" You know, we... You know, we'd never know. 5:30 Yeah, and I think when you start really becoming well-versed in history, the construct of Afro-Latinidad becomes so much easier to grasp. 5:39 It's like you said, like, all these different stops along the slave ships were really rooted in a lot of Latin American slave trades. 5:48 And I think the other thing too that you brought up that I think is really important is that the, you know, race is very much a social construct, and it's one that's really prevalent in the United States. 5:59 But we do see so many examples of not just anti-Blackness, but also colorism in the context of Latino diaspora out here.I'm wondering, this is kind of a spicy topic. 6:10 I have this conversation a lot with other Latinos around the term La Raza, and how it's, like, erasure of essentially Afro-Latinos and Black Latinos. I'm wondering, do you have thoughts about that? 6:22 When I think of the term La Raza, I, I think of it in a West Coast context. 6:27 The only group that I've ever heard use La Raza are, like, people that are from Central and South America, Mexican people that mostly live on the West Coast, and I believe there's some, like, historical context to that when it comes to the struggle of Mexican Americans trying to get into farming opportunities, things like that. 6:47 So personally, when I hear La Raza, like, it's something that is, like, I understand that it's Spanish, but I don't see it as something that correlates to me. 6:56 I see it more of something that correlates towards Mexican American, Central and South American individuals on the West Coast. Yeah. 7:04 I- it's definitely a very West Coast-centric term, 'cause I'm from the Midwest, and we don't really use it as much, but it is so interesting to see how there's even within geographic locations, like, all these, like, subcultures of Latinos. 7:17 Where would you say you have felt, like, the most at home as an Afro-Latino in the United States? In the United States, oof. Okay. So two places. Obviously, uh, New York, right? 7:29 So I grew up in Brooklyn, but I feel really at home, uh, and I just gotta be honest, I'm Puerto Rican, but I feel really at home a lot of times in the Dominican community simply because of the color of my skin. 7:40 My best friend is, uh, from the Dominican Republic. When I was coming into my own Afro-Latinidad, he was one of the people that sat me down, and he was Dominican, and was like, "This is your culture, too." Right? 7:52 And it really opened my eyes to a lot of things because there's a difference when, you know, when you live within the spectrum of Blackness and you're surrounded by Black history in, like, s- a place like New York that really fosters that. 8:06 And especially, like, as a kid growing up, I didn't really go anywhere. I stayed in, in, within the five boroughs until I went to college, and then I left home. 8:14 You know, when you see people that look like you from another place, it gives you a p- different perspective on life. So there's, uh, New York City, specifically like Washington Heights, a Dominican American community. 8:26 I feel really at home there. And then also Chicago. I love Chicago, like, for two aspects. And it's because it, it embodies Black history. There's so much Black history that's in Chicago. 8:38 It's literally founded by DuSable, a, a Black man, a man of Haitian descent. And then also the Puerto Rican community there. 8:46 I'm thinking of La Escuelita de Bomba y De La Corazón, the dance school there that's run by Ivelisse, and also the National Museum of Puerto Rican Arts and Culture. 8:56 These are places that, like, foster intentionality within Latinidad. They don't shy away from showing both the Taino and then also the African aspects of Puerto Rican culture. 9:07 You go to some Puerto Rican places and some institutions, and they only show, like, the Spanish, right? 9:13 But the Puerto Rican community in Chicago is very intentional about showing the full range of what it means to be Puerto Rican, and not just full Puerto Rican. It's is... 9:25 They have people in, in the community that are part Puerto Rican, and they do the, they do the work of making sure that your Puerto Ricaness is fostered. Yeah. Well, shout out to my hometown, Chicago. I absolutely agree. 9:40 It's a wonderful place to be, but I do really appreciate you naming that there is so much Black culture and influence there. 9:47 And I think, you know, I have a lot of conversations with other Latinos about how so much of my own organizing was informed by Black culture, 'cause we grew up learning about, you know, people like Fred Hampton, you know, and, and Jesse Jackson, all of these folks who have really prominent roles in the local organizing spaces out there. 10:06 And the Young Lords, they started in Chicago, too. Absolutely. And even though it's a deeply segregated city, there is so much cultural exchange. 10:15 So you do have your, you know, Humboldt Parks, which are, like, very Puerto Rican centric. 10:20 Then you also have, like, Little Village in Pilsen, very Mexican, but they're on the South Side, close to a lot of the Black neighborhoods. 10:26 So it, it, there's so much exchange there, and i- it's really a wonderful place to kind of learn about other cultures. So obviously, I'm biased. 10:36 And you know, I think when it comes to preserving our histories, you know, there's a, there's a lot to be said here about the importance of preserving specifically Afro-Latino history. 10:47 I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that in the context of today's political climate. Why is it so important for us to preserve our histories now in this moment? Can I get political? Yeah. Okay. 10:58 That's what we're here for. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] So we are living under, uh, the attempted fascist takeover of our country, right? And there's this move to Americanize, right? To fit everyone... 11:11 No longer a melting pot. They're trying to make it all, like, one stew, right? And that's the America, uh, you know, America. 11:19 Um, and that doesn't necessarily include people that are Black, that are Mexican, that are, uh, anything but white men. And even in situations like that, uh, white men that fit a specific, uh, idea, right? 11:37 It's up to us. Like, you know, one thing that I say is, like, no one's coming to save us. 11:41 We live in a country, you know, for all intents and purposes, the president, the people that are in charge control the vast majority of everything on a federal level. There's nothing we can do about that. 11:53 But we do have resources that are out there, and I think it's important that we are doing the diligent work to preserve and to tell the stories. You know, people say the internet is forever. 12:05 It is in some regards, but it's important for us to let people know that, you know, Afro-Latinos, African Americans, Mexican Americans, not only do we exist in this country, but we've done some amazing things.For this country, right? 12:19 There are people that have sacrificed their lives. There are people who spilled blood for this country, and they are just as much foundational to this country than anyone that is white that has done the same thing. 12:31 And it is important that we take up the mantle and, you know, tell people about them and let them know that, you know, not only are we here, we're here to stay. 12:42 [gentle music] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that has become so much more evident in the last year. 12:53 It's like you see so many pockets of resistance, of people that are standing their ground essentially to say, not only are, you know, immigrants here sustaining this country, sustaining the economy, but, like, descendants of enslaved people built this country, right? 13:09 So it's like- Yes... r- really- Right... reclaiming what we've rightfully are owed and also for indigenous people whose land was basically stolen. Right. 13:20 And I think as a journalist, I have, like, one idea of the ways to preserve history and document, but I'm interested for you, what is your preferred method of preserving these histories? 13:32 I think of myself from a digital first perspective, right? So I enjoy making videos, and I think of it, you know, if I don't enjoy doing it, then it, there's no real passion behind it. 13:45 So for me, preserving that history is telling that history, right? 13:49 And if you thi- if you look back at oral tradition, whether it's, you know, African American oral tradition, whether it's, uh, whatever, you know, uh, there are specific things that happened in this country that only people that experienced it are able to tell us about. 14:06 For example, the Tulsa Race Massacre, right? 14:09 For decades, the state of Oklahoma tried to say it was something that it wasn't, and it wasn't until Viola Fletcher came out and stood before Congress, 107 years old, and told people about what exactly happened. 14:24 So I think for me, I think of myself as somebody that likes to carry on history through oral tradition, through social media, and through those platforms. 14:33 Oh my gosh, that actually reminds me of a story that I recently wrote last year about basically an orchestrated fire in Palm Springs, and it happened in the late 1950s. 14:45 And at the time, it was kind of like the epicenter of, like, wealth and glamour in Hollywood, but there was, like, a two to three block radius of service workers that were mostly Black, Latino, indigenous service workers. 14:58 And they burned that entire area down to the ground so that they could push- Really?... those people out. Yeah. And it reminded me so much of Tulsa, obviously on a smaller scale. But those folks filed a mass lawsuit. 15:12 I mean, they're elderly now, right? Mm-hmm. 15:14 And they were able to win, you know, restitution so that they could continue to carry on their legacies and their stories and, you know, hand down their, whatever they were given to their children and grandchildren. 15:27 But it's so wild to think about that in the context of, like, how we continue to see these cycles, right? Mm-hmm. 15:34 How people's stories are kind of muted and swept under the rug, and I had not heard about the Palm Spring fires until last year when I wrote about it, right? 15:44 But Tulsa also was something that I think similarly swept under the rug, like you said, for a long time. You had these people giving testimony, and then I think there was a media aspect to it. 15:56 Some media was starting to kind of amplify those stories. I know- Yes... the one that came to mind was The Watchmen. Mm-hmm. Yes. 16:04 And I don't know if you're familiar or you watched it, but they just- The TV, yeah, the TV show. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 16:08 So they, there was a lot of, like, awareness that was brought to light from just even, you know, something like that. 16:15 I have this question about your platform because I, I think the way that you distribute information is so effective. You do such a good job of reaching wide audiences. 16:25 It seems like you're really engaged on the social media platform. Do you have concerns about how you would be able to distribute this type of information were Meta to be taken over? 16:38 I mean, we already know that it's a, a deeply problematic platform, but how do you navigate, I guess, the ethics of continuing to do this work while also trying to just recognize the reality and the limitations of social media? 16:51 Yeah. So that's a really good question. I save all my videos, so I, I have a, a backup, you know, on cloud somewhere. That's one thing. And then also, I, I have, you know, my own email list, right? 17:07 So I have about 3,000 people on the email list. Of course, it's nothing compared to, like, what I have as far as followers go, but still, it's something, right? 17:15 So I, I always tell people, and this is something I learned from my brother, my brother was like, "Listen, you need your own thing outside of social media, like a website or something like that." 17:23 So I use, I do use Substack. I know it is considered a social media platform, but the email list is mine, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if anything were to happen, I have 3,000 emails there that I can use as, like, a backup. 17:35 You understand what I'm saying? So that's one thing, and then of course, making sure that I save my videos so that if that does happen, you know, I have the video still. 17:43 I don't have to worry about losing everything permanently. We live in a tough atmosphere, right? 17:47 Like, there's no foolproof way to make sure that you can 100% protect yourself, but these are just some basic things you could do to make sure that you can protect yourself. Yeah. 17:58 And it's definitely a fine line, I think. 18:00 You know, as a journalist, uh, we also kind of navigate a similar sort of line where we want to protect ourselves and our safety, especially with the attacks on the press right now. 18:10 And I imagine it's similar with content creators because you guys live such public lives and public platforms. Have you ever been worried about being monitored?No. 18:22 Okay, so I didn't know if many people know this, but you can go to the FBI and do a Freedom of In- Information Act request on your public personal file if the FBI has anything on you. 18:33 And I did that a couple years ago, and there was nothing on me, so I'm not really worried about being monitored. And at the end of the day, like, I- I'm teaching history, right? 18:42 If, if the history that I teach makes you feel a, a certain type of way, then that's not me. That's you. That's your feelings, that's your emotions, that's how you feel. 18:52 But that doesn't make the history that I'm teaching any less valid, right? 18:57 So I try to come at it from a perspective where I give the facts without really trying to give my personal opinion, because that just adds bias, right? 19:06 And I always want my audience to come away with the understanding that, like, this is what happened. You can get... You can take your own opinion on it without being influenced by me. Right. 19:20 I'm wondering, because y- you've captured so many stories. You've retold so much history. 19:25 Is there any specific s- story that you feel like, specifically with Afro-Latino history, that deserves to be more in the mainstream? 19:35 Yeah, so, like, one of the things that I found really interesting is that there were so many, uh, Black people that were in Puerto Rico, that at one point, like, the Spanish were trying to leave the island. 19:49 I believe they were trying to go to Chile, and the King of Spain had to stop them. 19:54 And their main complaint was that there are more slaves and indigenous people on this island than there are Spanish people, and as soon as they realize it, they're gonna mutiny, and they're, you know... 20:05 And then it was also, for the Spanish, it was a point of embarrassment, because when people from other countries would come to Puerto Rico, they would only see Black people. And so the, the... 20:16 It's written, like, this is, like, in the 1600, 1700s that this happened, and they f- the King of Spain forbade any Spanish people from leaving the island. If they tried to leave, they would get thrown in jail. 20:28 It was a whole thing. So that's one thing. The other thing that I think is really, uh, really wonderful is how much Afro Puerto Ricans have influenced education. 20:38 For example, you know, we think about, uh, Rafael Cordero and his sister, and they were these Afro Puerto Ricans, and they opened up a school for everyone, right? 20:51 It wa- regardless of if you were rich, w- white, Black, and this is a Black man and his sister. And then also I think about Jose Celso Barbosa. He was a doctor, right? 21:03 Uh, he tried to get into school in New York, and they weren't able, you know, for whatever reason. I think it was mostly racial. But he ended up going to the University of Michigan and starting a... 21:14 So this is, again, this is the 1800s. He goes back to Puerto Rico, opens up a practice, and he's known as the doctor to the poor. And so these are individuals that, like, you know, 21:26 that no one really ever talks about, and I think their stories are amazing, you know? They represent me, so that's the representation that matters to me. Well, it sounds like you should have your own podcast too. 21:40 Thank you. [laughs] Yeah. I feel like there's... 21:43 I mean, I'm always learning and, like, you know, I grew up in a heavily Puerto Rican neighborhood, and even I didn't learn about the sterilization of Puerto Rican women until I think I was in college, you know? 21:55 So it's a lot of the really important aspects of our history that were just completely washed out of textbooks, washed out of our mainstream history. 22:05 Um, and especially when it comes to Black and indigenous history, it, it... History book treat it almost as if we're extinct. Indigenous people are treated as a relic of the past. Right. 22:16 So i- it's really nice to see kind of, like, the interest in learning more about this, and it seems like you have a pretty, like, girthy following. You guys have a lot of people that, like, wanna learn this information. 22:29 How do you see, I guess, the, the future, right? Like, younger generations reshaping conversations around Afro-Latino identity and the importance of it. I want them to continue to tell our stories, right? 22:43 I, you know, I, I find that there's, there's more... There's becoming a brain drain in America. I, I find that, like, a lot of people aren't interested in history as much as they once were. 22:55 A lot of people aren't really interested in anything except, like, making money and making money as fast as possible. And while history is something that's needed, it's not something that brings about fast money. 23:08 So a lot of people, they shy away from it, or they find it boring. I had... I've had several people that were at least 10 to 15 years younger than me tell me that, like, "Oh, that's boring. You do that?" Like, you know? 23:18 Like, I, I... And that's just the direction that they're, that they're in. Um, but I know that there are... Y- from being at the National Museum for Puerto Rican Arts and Culture, there are... 23:31 There's coming a generation of Puerto Ricans, of Afro Puerto Ricans, that want to tell the full story of the island, that want to s- tell the full story of what it means to be Puerto Rican, and it gives me hope. 23:42 I feel very hopeful when I see that. Because I know, you know, none of us are gonna be around forever, and no one is coming to save us. So we really have to do the work to save ourselves and to save our stories. 23:55 Yeah, that's really beautiful. And so, you know, I think that's the perfect way to kind of wrap things up. But I did wanna kinda leave you with the last word. 24:03 If there's anything that you feel like it's really important to amplify or say or share with our audience- Yeah... feel free to say it. Learn your history. 24:12 Your people, regardless of who you are, your people have done amazing things for this country and, and to this country. If you're Afro Puerto Rican, you exist. 24:21 Uh, you exist now, you existed before, and you will exist in the future. Don't let anyone tell you that you don't. And then also, you don't know where you're going unless you know where you're coming from. 24:36 Go to the cultural institutions, the Schomburg Center, the National Museum of African American Culture, the International African American Museum. Go to these places. The Smithsonian Museum, uh, of the American Latino. 24:49 Go to these places and learn about how your ancestors, my ancestors, all of our ancestors fought back against fascism and what they did to survive. They left us a blueprint for survival, and it's up to us to read it. 25:04 That is beautiful. Thank you again so much for being here. You're welcome. Yeah. And we look forward to seeing more of your content in the future. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Michelle. 25:16 [upbeat music] And that's a wrap on the Latino Newsletter. I'm your host, Michelle Zacarias. Until next time. 25:25 This episode of the Latino Newsletter podcast was produced by Joaquin Kotler, Juan Diego Ramirez, and Michelle Zacarias, with editorial support from Edward Wilkie. Julio Ricardo Varela edited the conversation. 25:39 The music is by Cast of Characters via Soundstripe. Season two of the Latino Newsletter podcast was made possible through individual gifts and the Latino Media Consortium. 25:50 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the guest and host, and don't necessarily reflect those of the Latino Newsletter or its staff. [upbeat music]
